tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post2549221507732982919..comments2024-03-21T06:36:04.196-05:00Comments on The Idol-Head of Diabolu, a Martian Manhunter blog: The Diabolu Idol-Head: Eighth Most Important Martian Manhunter AdversaryDiabolu Frankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04685199809207954223noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-78606737891468327882010-06-19T15:02:44.782-05:002010-06-19T15:02:44.782-05:00I think that the Idol-Head did make some changes f...I think that the Idol-Head did make some changes for J'Onn J'Onzz in that he had to abandon an identity. Yes, many of the stories of that era were sub-stellar.<br /><br />I really don't think the Idol Head qualifies as a villain as a nasty headache.<br /><br />As for the multiple identity, perhaps a few people are in the know. Also, maybe J'Onn will be working with a few alternate identities. (If Vandal Savage knows about one, retire it and create some others.)will_in_chicagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01468337654400802576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-43222981436471364152010-06-18T10:18:30.459-05:002010-06-18T10:18:30.459-05:00I think Frank is on to something here. In the rec...I think Frank is on to something here. In the recent Madame Xanadu appearances (read em if you haven't, they're fun) He introduces himself as simply "Mr. Jones." It is clearly an alias, and really, in a sixties detective/occult story, not out of the ordinary...at least until he starts lifting houses and taking gut shots without a scratch.mathematicscorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439579069513071094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-34038499450525143942010-06-18T06:33:35.662-05:002010-06-18T06:33:35.662-05:00Liss, there are only two finds of comments that hu...Liss, there are only two finds of comments that hurt my feeling: outright nasty ones, and no comments at all. I made controversial choices/assertions, so I expected some debate would follow, and wouldn't have it any other way.<br /><br />I expect you're right about the reformating of J'onn J'onzz between books, but I disagree that history wasn't made in the process. In the rare instances someone was actually trying to make history in comics before the 1970s, you ended up with weird political vehicles like Wonder Woman that struggle to pass the smell test. The rest of the time, creations just fell ass backwards into notoriety.<br /><br />Finally, how can logic be expected from J'onn J'onzz? The guy ran around with super breath but couldn't blow out a match. Scipio had a field day with J'onn's illogical actions. If anything, I think "John Jones" is a front-- an identity tailor made to be the one people find out to protect his others. If Vandal Savage knows who John is, and the identity continues to be used, something is up.Diabolu Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685199809207954223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-27505315691493227112010-06-18T01:22:13.321-05:002010-06-18T01:22:13.321-05:00No worries... you and me, you know we're alway...No worries... you and me, you know we're always tight.mathematicscorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439579069513071094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-57313413987496350852010-06-17T23:31:16.964-05:002010-06-17T23:31:16.964-05:00While this is complicated to the point of headache...While this is complicated to the point of headache-inducing, and I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but I figure I might as well throw my hat into the ring just for the heck of it.<br /><br />I'm kind of seeing it both ways--yes, it was important that John Jones got "killed" off, but at the same time, I don't see the Idol Head being all that important mostly for Frank's counter-argument that the Idol-Head stories were "sub-literate." They were rather contrived and formulaic, and I wouldn't even put the Idol-Head on "Maguffin" level, because a Maguffin implies misdirection towards a broader story goal (in the Hitchcockian sense of the term) and there's none of that subtletly in any Idol-Head story that I can think of.<br /><br />Anywho...my main beef with the killing of John Jones not being not that important to comicsdom is because I see it as plot device the writers employed while they transitioned from 'Tec to HoM. I don't think they were thinking of breaking comics precendent or making history, but merely trying to solve the problem of "how do we keep our creation going in a different type of book?" Therefore, in my mind, the death of John Jones isn't a creative victory but just a storytelling convenience.<br /><br />Sure, it is somewhat important that a main character's alias get killed off...but it's not on the level of Janet Leigh dying only a third of the way into <i>Psycho</i>.<br /><br />Also, just to provide backup to Tom's counter-argument of Frank's defense of his argument that there is more than one John Jones...why would an alien of pretty high intelligence choose the same obviously-fake name twice in his lifetime, especially after living with humans for however many years? I think it would be time to bust out "Adrian Swiatowitz" or something by then.LissBirdshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17059648604602469375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-72169637309604500192010-06-17T21:49:14.433-05:002010-06-17T21:49:14.433-05:00Um... I guess I shouldn't have stopped mid-rep...Um... I guess I shouldn't have stopped mid-reply to watch movies with my girlfriend, or I'd have given a nod to M.C.'s faith in my myopia...Diabolu Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685199809207954223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-52138613666228591982010-06-17T21:46:20.807-05:002010-06-17T21:46:20.807-05:00Tom, regardless of DC's ever shifting and cons...Tom, regardless of DC's ever shifting and constantly contradictory continuity, the John Jones character was killed off in 1964. Jones made no new appearances after his demise until he was given a soft revival in 1984, and firmly resurrected in 1986. <br /><br />Whatever arbitrary dictates this writer or that imposes, the comics were printed and the stories stand. Every time some editor tries to lay down a new law, the next guy overturns or ignores whatever they don't like or never bothered to research. Between the Human Flame and Zook turning up in Didio era comics, it's pretty clear the general exclusion of Silver/Bronze Age solo stories that began with the 1988 <i>Martian Manhunter</i> mini-series is no longer entirely binding. If the original Idol-Head story "happened," then any retcon someone makes up has to compete with Diabolu having beaten them to the punch by nearly fifty years, and had an effect on twenty years of publishing history.Diabolu Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685199809207954223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-48693253345876895562010-06-17T19:31:23.876-05:002010-06-17T19:31:23.876-05:00Ah, but you are forgetting the time length involve...Ah, but you are forgetting the time length involved. Frank can answer better than I, but I'm pretty sure from the Death of John Jones in 1964 until the early eighties he was quite "dead." The Idol-Head was the impetus for this sea change.mathematicscorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439579069513071094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-37052635213884821012010-06-17T18:02:51.483-05:002010-06-17T18:02:51.483-05:00This isn't about "an inclusive theory of ...This isn't about "an inclusive theory of Manhunter history". It's about whether the Idol-Head has lasting significance. Frank claims the Idol-Head is important because it forced the Martian Manhunter to give up his John Jones identity. But he hasn't given up his John Jones identity. John Jones is still around. Frank gives an arcane reason for believing that it's a different John Jones, but I doubt that anyone who has written a story with John Jones makes the same distinction Frank does. To the people who actually write the comics, there is only one John Jones.<br /><br />You're right in saying that the John Jones personality is not fully formed, but just "a convenient alias, used a number of times over the decades". But that just makes the "killing" of Jones even less significant. Jones can "die" any number of times, then turn up later in another city. For all we know, the Idol-Head may not be Jones' first, or last, "murderer".<br /><br />I'm not saying that the Idol-Head shouldn't be in the top 10. Frank gave all kinds of other excellent reasons for the Idol-Head's significance. I'm just saying that the failure of Jones to stay "dead" should have been included in the counter-arguments.Tom Hartleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00279973364279144136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-11965342342338967672010-06-17T12:36:41.740-05:002010-06-17T12:36:41.740-05:00NOPERS. Frank is not the only one with an inclusi...NOPERS. Frank is not the only one with an inclusive theory of Manhunter history. <br /><br />Superman and Batman, among others, are have not been allowed to grow past a certain point in a linear fashion. They are de-aged and rebooted to keep them safely relatable and popular, and any exploration that strays from the 25-35 age group is an "imaginary" story. There is some reason behind this, as innate familiarity (despite masks and capes, they are both "ideal" men) is part of their appeal, accentuating their fantastic elements all the more.<br /><br />Martian Manhunter on the other hand has appeal rooted in his "other-ness" and so a decades long (centuries if you ask me or Grant Morrison) lifespan in real time is not such a bad thing. In fact, it's a bit of wish fulfillment in its own right. Being present for all the interesting things in the last 60 years is just a cool idea, let alone being a night invulnerable, shapeshifting demi-god.<br /><br />So yeah, Jones is just a convenient alias, used a number of times over the decades, so non-Ostrander anachronisms are fine.<br /><br />Ostrander's "there was a real John Jones" retcon, while not completely abhorrent, is up there with Greedo shooting first. Dumb and unnecessary. <br /><br />As to the Idol-Head, as macguffin's go, it ain't half bad, and I will always think of it fondly.mathematicscorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439579069513071094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-91745871290731617882010-06-17T01:17:41.658-05:002010-06-17T01:17:41.658-05:00No one else in the entire universe but you would m...No one else in the entire universe but you would make that distinction. Conway and every other writer since has assumed that the current John Jones and the Silver Age John Jones are the same guy.Tom Hartleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00279973364279144136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-86762443518492526152010-06-16T23:43:46.561-05:002010-06-16T23:43:46.561-05:00In my unified theory of Martian Manhunter continui...In my unified theory of Martian Manhunter continuity, the "John Jones" service record submitted to Biloxi Investigations was for the version employed in Middleton, CO prior to and in the early days of the JLofA (see <i>JLA: Year One</i>.) The deceased John Jones of <i>Detective Comics</i> served in Middletown, New England in the 1950s and 60s. John Jones is a common enough name, after all.Diabolu Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685199809207954223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6620698560611640068.post-26279361744724080662010-06-16T22:48:38.663-05:002010-06-16T22:48:38.663-05:00Another counter-argument:
John Jones didn't s...Another counter-argument:<br /><br />John Jones didn't stay "dead". In the mid '80s, during the Justice League Detroit era, J'Onn resumed his John Jones identity. He claimed Jones had retired from the police force years ago. There was no reference to the Idol-Head having "killed" Jones. The "death" of John Jones, and possibly the entire Idol-Head saga, had been retconned. (Probably because writer Gerry Conway hadn't bothered to read DETECTIVE COMICS #326.) Although John Jones, now a private detective, doesn't appear with the same regularity that he did in the Silver Age DETECTIVE COMICS back-ups, and in recent years has been revealed to be but one of many secret identities assumed by the Martian Manhunter, John Jones is still alive and well.Tom Hartleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00279973364279144136noreply@blogger.com